Which Players Have Played For the Best Defenses?
Posted by Neil Paine on August 23, 2010
By popular demand, here's a sequel to the post I wrote on Friday, which focused on the NBA players who played for the best offenses over the course of their careers. This time I'll be looking at the players who were a part of the best defenses in their careers, but the methodology remains the same:
- Estimate defensive efficiency (points allowed per 100 possessions) for every team since 1951 in the regular-season and playoffs.
- Adjust playoff defensive ratings up/down based on regular-season offensive strength of postseason foes.
- Compare defensive efficiencies to the league average (to account for the fact that the avg. was, for instance, 85 pts/100 poss in 1951 and 108 in 2010)
- Find career averages (weighted by MP with each team) for every player since the NBA started tracking minutes in 1952.
Make sense? Good. Here are the all-time players who had a presence on the best defensive teams (minimum 15,000 career MP):
| Rk | Player | MP | TmDef | Rk | Player | MP | TmDef | Rk | Player | MP | TmDef | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | K.C. Jones | 20000 | -6.74 | 35 | Bryon Russell | 22886 | -3.08 | 69 | Eddie Jones | 35544 | -2.53 | ||
| 2 | Tom Heinsohn | 22477 | -6.39 | 36 | Charles Smith | 17994 | -3.06 | 70 | Alonzo Mourning | 28572 | -2.50 | ||
| 3 | Sam Jones | 28939 | -6.29 | 37 | Vinnie Johnson | 26979 | -3.03 | 71 | Bill Laimbeer | 37691 | -2.48 | ||
| 4 | Bill Russell | 48223 | -6.08 | 38 | Paul Pressey | 21928 | -2.97 | 72 | P.J. Brown | 36705 | -2.47 | ||
| 5 | Tom Sanders | 25213 | -5.99 | 39 | Dave Cowens | 33333 | -2.96 | 73 | Greg Anthony | 17447 | -2.46 | ||
| 6 | Manu Ginobili | 19038 | -5.72 | 40 | Don Nelson | 24894 | -2.96 | 74 | Lonnie Shelton | 20141 | -2.45 | ||
| 7 | Tim Duncan | 42317 | -5.60 | 41 | Jo Jo White | 33369 | -2.96 | 75 | Clifford Ray | 21675 | -2.43 | ||
| 8 | Tony Parker | 26858 | -5.48 | 42 | Richard Hamilton | 31076 | -2.94 | 76 | Hedo Turkoglu | 23734 | -2.42 | ||
| 9 | Frank Ramsey | 17726 | -5.04 | 43 | Scottie Pippen | 49174 | -2.91 | 77 | Chauncey Billups | 34535 | -2.42 | ||
| 10 | Bruce Bowen | 28246 | -4.96 | 44 | Michael Jordan | 48484 | -2.91 | 78 | Udonis Haslem | 17828 | -2.42 | ||
| 11 | David Robinson | 38492 | -4.77 | 45 | Don Chaney | 19241 | -2.89 | 79 | Jerry Sloan | 27638 | -2.42 | ||
| 12 | Dennis Rodman | 33628 | -4.60 | 46 | Derek Fisher | 32436 | -2.89 | 80 | Wilt Chamberlain | 55418 | -2.41 | ||
| 13 | John Havlicek | 53331 | -4.45 | 47 | Rick Mahorn | 28208 | -2.88 | 81 | Willie Anderson | 17114 | -2.41 | ||
| 14 | Larry Siegfried | 15458 | -4.36 | 48 | Wes Unseld | 40721 | -2.87 | 82 | Nate Thurmond | 38756 | -2.40 | ||
| 15 | John Starks | 26549 | -4.29 | 49 | Ron Harper | 34199 | -2.87 | 83 | Kobe Bryant | 45177 | -2.39 | ||
| 16 | Tayshaun Prince | 23899 | -4.28 | 50 | Phil Chenier | 21204 | -2.85 | 84 | Darryl Dawkins | 19969 | -2.32 | ||
| 17 | Kevin Grevey | 16871 | -3.88 | 51 | Aaron McKie | 21294 | -2.81 | 85 | Tom Boerwinkle | 15172 | -2.32 | ||
| 18 | Sean Elliott | 27338 | -3.69 | 52 | Elvin Hayes | 54160 | -2.80 | 86 | Bob Love | 27181 | -2.29 | ||
| 19 | Chris Childs | 15570 | -3.65 | 53 | Rasho Nesterovic | 19085 | -2.77 | 87 | Anthony Mason | 33697 | -2.28 | ||
| 20 | Steve Kerr | 18204 | -3.50 | 54 | Kirk Hinrich | 18715 | -2.76 | 88 | Rafer Alston | 20886 | -2.27 | ||
| 21 | Charlie Ward | 15647 | -3.49 | 55 | Rasheed Wallace | 41786 | -2.75 | 89 | Larry Bird | 41329 | -2.26 | ||
| 22 | Mike Riordan | 17538 | -3.42 | 56 | Eric Snow | 25602 | -2.75 | 90 | Bob Cousy | 34285 | -2.25 | ||
| 23 | LeBron James | 25197 | -3.36 | 57 | Chris Dudley | 17146 | -2.71 | 91 | Charles Oakley | 45388 | -2.25 | ||
| 24 | Yao Ming | 16715 | -3.25 | 58 | Clifford Robinson | 46447 | -2.71 | 92 | Bob Dandridge | 33384 | -2.23 | ||
| 25 | Ben Wallace | 34391 | -3.24 | 59 | Kenyon Martin | 22787 | -2.64 | 93 | Jermaine O'Neal | 26745 | -2.22 | ||
| 26 | Jason Collins | 15308 | -3.21 | 60 | Mark Eaton | 27464 | -2.64 | 94 | Shaquille O'Neal | 49253 | -2.22 | ||
| 27 | Gus Williams | 28860 | -3.21 | 61 | Patrick Ewing | 45801 | -2.62 | 95 | Rod Strickland | 35231 | -2.21 | ||
| 28 | John Salley | 19218 | -3.18 | 62 | Bill Bradley | 25960 | -2.61 | 96 | Kevin Garnett | 45450 | -2.16 | ||
| 29 | Karl Malone | 62759 | -3.15 | 63 | Dwyane Wade | 20414 | -2.61 | 97 | Kevin Porter | 20078 | -2.16 | ||
| 30 | Robert Horry | 33889 | -3.15 | 64 | Joe Dumars | 39236 | -2.61 | 98 | Brian Grant | 22973 | -2.16 | ||
| 31 | John Stockton | 54162 | -3.14 | 65 | Greg Ballard | 23381 | -2.60 | 99 | Paul Silas | 39608 | -2.16 | ||
| 32 | Avery Johnson | 29422 | -3.10 | 66 | Walt Frazier | 34918 | -2.57 | 100 | Doc Rivers | 25960 | -2.14 | ||
| 33 | Richard Jefferson | 25970 | -3.10 | 67 | Isiah Thomas | 39732 | -2.55 | ||||||
| 34 | Sidney Moncrief | 26376 | -3.08 | 68 | Dennis Johnson | 42948 | -2.54 |
On Friday, we saw that being a part of the Steve Nash-era Suns or the Showtime Lakers of the 80s went a long way toward securing a place on the "played for the best offenses" list... Well, today it becomes clear that playing for the Bill Russell/Red Auerbach Celtics and the Tim Duncan/Gregg Popovich Spurs is the key to appearing on the "best defenses" ranking. Each of the top 5 players on this list were a part of the Celtics' first dynasty, and 5 of the next 6 players on the list belonged to the Spurs of recent vintage (the one who didn't? Frank Ramsey ... of the 50s/60s Celts).
As a side note, ever wonder how the Auberbach Celtics were able to dominate the league so thoroughly in its first two decades? A look at some of their top players on this list provides a clue:
| Player | Minutes | TmOff | TmDef |
|---|---|---|---|
| K.C. Jones | 20000 | -0.81 | -6.74 |
| Tom Heinsohn | 22477 | -0.66 | -6.39 |
| Sam Jones | 28939 | -0.62 | -6.29 |
| Bill Russell | 48223 | -0.51 | -6.08 |
| Tom Sanders | 25213 | -0.87 | -5.99 |
| Frank Ramsey | 17726 | -0.02 | -5.04 |
| John Havlicek | 53331 | -0.76 | -4.45 |
| Larry Siegfried | 15458 | -0.92 | -4.36 |
Remember, negative scores are good for a defense (meaning the team suppressed efficiency below the league average), but they also indicate a bad offense. And even by the standards of the low-efficiency 1950s & '60s, the Auerbach/Russell Celtics were a subpar offensive squad, as I noted here with regard to the '64 Celts:
"Despite winning all of those championships, the Celtics were not a strong offensive team during the early 1960s. After finishing last in the league in FG% in 1961 and 1963 with Cousy at the helm, Boston was at it again in '64, ending the year ranked 9th out of 9 teams. The Celtics' 2nd-ranked 113.0 PPG was merely an illusion of pace -- Boston easily took the most FGAs of any team in basketball, 654 more than Philadelphia, the next-closest team. The offense ran through John Havlicek and Sam Jones, each of whom averaged over 19 PPG, but Bill Russell was conserving himself for defense and rebounding (he took only 13.6% of the shots when on the floor), and the rest of the team shot well below average."
If you're going to have a weak offense -- like Boston did -- and still rattle off 11 titles in 13 years -- like Boston did -- you need to have one of the best defenses of all time... and the Russell-era Celtics most certainly did. According to the z-scores we set up here, those Boston teams boasted the #3, #5, #6, #13, #22, and #23 ranked defenses in NBA history, giving them more appearances in the all-time top 25 than any other team. The greatest dynasty in NBA history was also the best multi-year defensive team in NBA history, and our top 100 list bears this out.
August 23rd, 2010 at 9:03 am
I love the work you do. I'd like to see how many of these players have championships on their resumes compared to the offensive list, if you can easily put it up. If not, I'll try finding out on my own.
August 23rd, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Hedo? HEDO?!?!
August 23rd, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Interesting how much further up the list Worm is than any other Pistons or Bulls.
August 23rd, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Surprised Hakeem doesn't even make the top 100
August 23rd, 2010 at 1:58 pm
Re: #2 - I know it seems strange, but check out the teams he's been on:
August 23rd, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Btw, here's Hakeem, who ranked 203rd all-time, playing for an average defense of -1.11:
August 23rd, 2010 at 2:06 pm
Rick Addleman is a sound defensive coach (surprised there aren't more Blazers present actually). Apparently Rudy T less so.
August 23rd, 2010 at 2:36 pm
Right, Turkoglu was very fortunate to come up with some strong defensive Kings teams (who incidentally provide anecdotal evidence for my finding that pace has no effect on defensive rating), then went to one of the greatest defenses in NBA history with San Antonio, and finally bounced to the Dwight Howard-era Magic as D12 was coming into his own as the league's top defensive force.
August 23rd, 2010 at 2:48 pm
That's because Adleman has the will of the warrior. Rudy has the will of the housewife, or maybe schoolmarm.
August 23rd, 2010 at 4:03 pm
Guess Rudy was lucky that he had the best defensive player of the modern era on his team.... It appears Hakeem's teams played significantly better D in the playoffs
August 23rd, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Seeing lebron in the top 25 leads me to the theory that Lebron can function as a quasi-big man in terms of anchoring a team defense. Although his man defense leaves a lot to be desired, his size and the threat of his shot blocking ability allow him to have the defensive impact of a big, although not to the extent of a Tim Duncan or D12.
August 23rd, 2010 at 6:12 pm
no Dwight Howard but Hedo Turkoglu, Manu, and Rafer Alston of all people make this. as Rajon Rondo knows best, its great to play with hall of fame players
August 23rd, 2010 at 7:46 pm
Irish - be careful what you say - Manu is pretty much a lock for the hall of fame...
August 23rd, 2010 at 8:53 pm
How many guys appeared on both lists? Is there a quick way to figure that?
August 24th, 2010 at 12:01 am
Guys on both lists:
* Steve Kerr (30th offense, 20th defense)
* Scottie Pippen (11th offense, 43rd defense)
* Robert Horry (56th offense, 30th defense)
* Michael Jordan (43rd offense, 44th defense)
* Larry Bird (13th offense, 89th defense)
* Bryon Russell (73rd offense, 35th defense)
* Derek Fisher (81st offense, 46th defense)
* Kobe Bryant (57th offense, 83rd defense)
* Shaquille O'Neal (50th offense, 94th defense)
* Dennis Johnson (91st offense, 68th defense)
* Bobby Dandridge (94th offense, 92nd defense)
Not a bad list of guys you'd like to go to war with, huh?
August 24th, 2010 at 12:14 am
Any chance of seeing how many champions from each list easily, Neil?
August 24th, 2010 at 1:40 am
K.C. Jones was enshrined in the Basketball Hall of Fame & he is topping the list, can anyone update the list ,it will be a great help.
August 24th, 2010 at 2:47 am
#8:
"(who incidentally provide anecdotal evidence for my finding that pace has no effect on defensive rating)"
Doesn't Dean Oliver come to this premise (offensively, and defensively) in Basketball on Paper? I swear he did.
August 24th, 2010 at 2:48 am
Hmmm... Now I'm second guessing myself. I'll check tonight when I finish work.
August 24th, 2010 at 8:54 am
Looking at the players on both lists, would it be fair to say the Jordan-era Bulls and Shaq/Kobe-era Lakers were on the top of some list? Not sure what list that would be (best teams ever? best offense/defense combo?), but it seems like it is noteworthy that 3 players from those Bulls teams and 4 from those Lakers teams are on both lists.
August 24th, 2010 at 9:12 am
Re: #16 - It's not quite as easy as it was to find the guys on both lists, but I'll try to put that search together as well.
# 18 - I'm sure it is in there at some point, and if not there, Hollinger's old books for sure. I'm not claiming to have made this discovery just now (far from it, I called it "one of the cornerstones of APBRmetrics", so it's an idea that's been around for 20 or more years). I just ran the same tests on this data and re-affirmed the same conclusion. Definitely a case of standing on the shoulders of giants here.
# 20 - Here's a combined offense + defense table:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6205#comment-17931
Jordan's Bulls dominate the list, but there are also some Kobe-era Lakers in the mix as well.
August 24th, 2010 at 9:59 am
Thanks, Neil, you're awesome.
August 24th, 2010 at 11:29 am
#21 Not mention Kareem's Bucks!
The inclusion of that 1994 Seattle meltdown is sad to this day. How different would our perception of Payton and Kemp be if they had made the finals that year (they were the team that took out the Rockets the year before, so there's a possibility if they hadn't collapsed to the Nuggets in round 1 that they could have made it all the way).
August 24th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Wow, look at how high the 09 Cavs were; all the haters who think Miami won't be that great are going to be disappointed... Kareem has 4 teams in the top 12....
August 24th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
I only see the '02 and '09 Lakers on the list. Obviously, "only" is a relative term there, but I figured there would be more from the Shaq/Kobe run seeing as how so many of those guys are on both lists. Then again, Horry also earned some of his ranking with SA (particularly on defense) and Fisher has been there for all 5 with Kobe. I guess that makes sense.
I guess that leads to an interesting question (which may have been answered elsewhere) but, which incarnation of the Lakers has been better: the Shaq-led era or the Kobe-led era?
August 25th, 2010 at 12:17 am
I don't know what the regular season numbers say, but that 2001 Lakers team had one of the most ridiculous playoff runs I've ever seen.
August 25th, 2010 at 10:37 am
The regular season numbers were shockingly non-dominant... Of course, that only set them up to be the Finalist That Improved the Most During the Playoffs:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6237
August 25th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
"shockingly non-dominant" is my new favorite expression to describe any underachiever of any kind.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Neil got a topic for you to research. Don't know if it's really feasible. When discussing the great centers and big men to ever play the game one thing gets left out when people discuss who's better. The amount of double teams each player has seen. I use to think Wilt was double teamed all the time but when actually watching alot of video of him i seen some double teams but nothing remotely comparable to what Shaq saw his first 13 years of his career. My theory is that Shaq has seen more double teams per game , or per possession than any player(Jordan posssible exception) that has ever played the game. But let's just limit this to centers and power forwards. Remember when a couple years back People was asking Shaq who was the best bigman and he said he was cuz he's the only one that gets double teamed, and i thought that was funny but true and sensible. Is there any way you can find this out for me?
August 25th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
"I guess that leads to an interesting question (which may have been answered elsewhere) but, which incarnation of the Lakers has been better: the Shaq-led era or the Kobe-led era?"
Better compared to the league or better compared to each other? Compared to the league, the Kobe-led era is better. But there were probably 4 teams during the Shaq-era run that were better than any team was last year or the year before(varying by year, the Spurs, Kings, Mavs and Lakers).
August 26th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
@29, I don't doubt that somebody somewhere has been collecting double team stats over the past few years. When you can feasibly record every minute of every game with league pass and home electronics, there's all sorts of inside-the-possession information that the dedicated fan could record. Somebody out there might have career dribbles numbers for Monta Ellis and a theory for what they mean.
The problem with these stats, once you find someone who claims to have them, is that they're probably not reliable, probably not free, and probably don't go back far enough to look at the entirety of Tim Duncan's career, let alone Shaq's.
If someone told me Shaq drew a double team on x percentage of his plays in '94-'95, I would say take show me your tape collection.
August 26th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
Right. If Synergy Sports existed 15 years ago, we could research things that weren't tracked in the basic box score or the on/off +/- stats, and we could put together "double team leaderboards", etc. But the thing is, Synergy in its current incarnation didn't even exist 6 years ago, much less during the primes of Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, or even the 1st half of Duncan's career. We can only work with the data that's out there, and unfortunately, basketball is only now obsessively tracking the kinds of things we have going back to the 1980s at Baseball-Reference.
August 27th, 2010 at 10:26 am
@31 and 32- Yeah i figured it was highly unfeasible. Maybe i can get my hands on footage of the top big men and history or just a sample portion and count them or maybe get a team of guys assign them to one guy and come up with those stats. Just something i'm really curious about, My theory is Shaq saw the most double teams per touch, hakeem , then kareem then wilt. That's my theory. The world will probably never know.
August 27th, 2010 at 11:49 am
The double-team isn't some modern invention. Most of the footage of Wilt that's easily available shows him playing the Celtics. They often played him one-on-one because a) they had Russell, and b) they had a defensive philosophy of letting big scorers go off while containing their teammates. I wouldn't assume that all teams played him that way; most other teams didn't have the personnel to play that way.
August 27th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
@34 ' I know the double team isn't a modern invention but when watching footage from wilt's era i barely see any double teams. Alot of people don't know but they had defensive three seconds all over the court after you cross time line, this with the faster pace made double teaming tactically harder. No zones back then and you couldn't double team on the in bound pass.
August 28th, 2010 at 11:13 am
@AYC- I think what get's lost in the sauce is the different trends and philosophies that coaches have a different times during the history of the game. Just as the three pointer was looked at as mostly a bailout shot during the eighties instead of a major weapon like the 90's theirs been different defensive philosophies. Like in the eighties it was mostly man to man or the 1-2-2 zone but the late eighties(bad, boys) and nineties was a focus on help defense. After watching alot of tape of wilt , russell, Oscar, west, it's obviuos that double teaming wasn't something they like to do philosophically during that era.
July 1st, 2011 at 1:17 pm
@3 -- Not really. Rodman kept leaving teams just as they started to decline, and thus, kept missing the defensive regression inherent to a team getting old.